If you are sane and follow discussions around energy and climate policies, you have probably observed a troubling lack of epistemic virtues among many participants. This is probably caused by a toxic mixture of incompetence, ideological fundamentalism, social inertia, and greed. For future reference, here is a small list of dishonest tricks that I have encountered with some regularity. Focus is on those arguments that are used to counter the thinking of people like me. Namely people who are concerned of environment, climate change, social justice etc. while at the same conclude (based on pretty robust scientific research/analysis) that, for example, nuclear power will be a critical part of any attempt to address human needs while minimizing environmental damage. (I kind of suspect that writing stuff like this is not an optimal communications strategy with those who don’t get it, but I am doing it in any case. Lets take this as some kind of private therapy in an obscure corner of the internet…I am human as well and there is a limit on how much I can take.)
Is there some nonsense I have missed? I will update the list as new stupidities appear.
- Don’t do the actual comparison: This trick is very common. Claim that nuclear is very expensive or dangerous and suggest the opposite for your favored options without actually backing it up with anything else except rhetoric.
This trick also appears in many “real” publications on mitigations scenarios. By simply excluding option with more nuclear power, you can proceed to suggest how it is not playing an important role in your scenarios. Leaving it out makes your life easier, since costs of your favored policy options can be conveniently hidden. This trick has also different shades of gray. Some people might allow the idea of nuclear power into their modelling, but then kill it by choosing appropriately crazy input paramaters (which they might fail to disclose clearly).
- Subtract subsidies from costs and then report the resulting number as a demonstration how cheap renewable energy sources are. Don’t ever highlight what you just did! This is so dishonest that I am always amazed that people still dare to use it. (Some examples here and here)
- Play fast and loose with discount rates: If you want to make stuff you don’t like appear more expensive, quietly use a higher discount rate for that. (Example here)
- Cherrypick: Pick the worst you can find for stuff you don’t like and best you can find for your favorites. (For example, for wind use 40% capacity factors and 1000€/kW capital cost…)
- Draw the boundaries close: ignore system wide costs (extra capacity, grids etc.) Somebody else can pay those, no reason for you to internalize the external costs you cause. External costs are for others.
- Confuse costs, investments, profits etc. : If somebody says renewables are costly, counter this by saying investors find it very profitable.
If the other side points out, that profits are due to subsidies and the transfer of risks to society at large, leave the scene quickly.
- If Wall Street bankers (Citi, Deutsche Bank, Goldman Sachs, Lazard…) say something nice about renewables, treat this as especially credible message as opposed to usual nonsense riddled with conflicts of interest.
- Rely on gray literature: Reality has a clear pro-nuclear bias so instead of reading what actual experts say write your own stuff that says the opposite. Remember, actual education or training doesn’t matter. You become an expert by just repeating your opinion sufficiently many times on paper. In fact, if you disagree with conclusions experts draw, in just few minutes (without reading the paper) you can write a comment online that reveals the critical mistake some expert working on this for years apparently made. Then you can just move on as if nothing happened. Create a self-referential library of nonsense so that you can use the existence of previous nonsense to improve the “credibility” of your new reports.
- Call renewable industry lobby groups “independent research institutes”. (I have seen this happen. This sounds crazy, but is true.)
- Come up with fantastic external costs for stuff you don’t like: nuclear power externality of us consuming the uranium of future generations,
millions dying from radiation in a core melt reactor accident as opposed to none from Fukushima etc. etc. Here you can let your imagination fly! These are costs that nobody is “really” paying so how can you be called out for that? (If the scientific reports by eggheads don’t please you, balance those by quoting some random financial analyst in a TV program. I kid you not. This is not Onion.)
- Ignore environmental and climate damage you cause: bioenergy..I am looking at you!
- Ignore the fact that your favored energy source was technically dependent on those dirty energy sources with high external costs.
- If current costs do not please you, come up with your own. If you wish to appear sophisticated, make an IAM (integrated assesment model) where future costs of stuff you like are really cheap and then use it to justify policies here and now. Nobody will be reading these things decades from now on…just do it! Of course if succesful it burdens the current generations with hidden costs, but do not ask what my favored energy source can do for you, but rather what you can do for my favored energy source!
- When called out for dishonesty and unable to defend, leave the scene.
Repeat the same claims elsewhere where hopefully audience is more gullible. Never learn and never acknowledge being wrong. That sends a wrong signal.
- Doublespeak: appeal to populism, people, community, ordinary people, being against corporations, all the while promoting socially regressive income transfers for the wealthy.
- Climate change is a planetary emergency, we need to stop using fossil fuels. Nevertheless, cost your alternative by assuming small penetration of renewable energy sources.
- Germany doesn’t pay subsidies for renewables (because there feed in tariffs are not included in the federal budget). There is no subsidy…rather “a surcharge in which energy consumers make a compulsory contribution towards transforming the energy system.” Again this is not from Onion, but from PV PR material from Fraunhofer institute in Germany.
- Science fiction: If your vision seems to make little sense based on technologies now available, come up with cheap future technologies that somebody else will invent to make it alright.
- Ignore tradeoffs: Society really can have no other use for resources except to satisfy your technology fetish.
- Move the goalposts so that energy revolution is just around the corner decade after decade after decade. This is really about commitment to faith and identity and not about what happens in the real world.
- Use popular or political will as an argument: Something must be done since politicians have set a “goal”. It is not that politicians could make dumb decisions or that people could be clueless or ill-informed.
- Ignore political risks: Of course your vision will not be undermined by let us say escalating costs undermining the political support. Politics is fixed and people do not adapt to changing circumstances.
- Call lower taxes for some uses of fossil fuels a subsidy even though fossil fuels in total are taxed heavily. Pretend that this is just the same as transfers to RES producers.
Also, if state oil company effectively pays for lower oil prices for citizens in OPEC countries, this is clearly the same thing as citizens paying subsidies for RES producers in rich countries. Nuance is for losers!
- Manufacture and cost your products relying on fossil fuel powered 24/7 power sources, but tell others this is not necessary. After all baseload is a myth!
- Focus on electricity! That is where your fetishes are and that is most important.
- In common sense economics prosperity is related to productivity. If little input (all inputs) is needed for a valuable output, productivity is high.
Instead of talking of this, talk beside the point. Focus on subsets…things like “energy productivity” and equate prosperity with those even if your policies lower the total productivity by requiring, for example, more labour, more materials, and reduced capacity utilization. Here is an earlier post (in finnish, sorry). Last column of the table gives primary energy produced (million kWh) per job for different energy sources. (For PV and wind estimates are 0.6 and 2 respectively.)
- Ignore resource limitations of your favored technologies. Biosphere is there for the taking, carbage has loads of useful energy, mineral requirements for solar and wind are irrelevant. Mining is damaging only when others are doing it.
- Claim somebody (small village or tropical island will do) is producing with XXX% of their energy with variable RES even though the region has precisely no one whose consumption pattern would fit the production pattern of variable RES (..and ignore the difference between energy and electricity, see point 25).
Argument clearly becomes invalid when applied to other energy sources. For example, city of Loviisa in Finland with two nuclear power plants produced more than 3000% of “its energy” with nuclear power. Comment like this is SO inappropriate trolling.
- Base your energy visions fundamentally on burning biomass, but in public talk mainly about solar and wind. They don’t feel quite so paleolithic.
- There is no reason to decarbonize right now with existing technologies since Elon Musk is building a battery gigafactory, Lockheed Martin soon has fusion reactors ready, solar electricity will soon be free, solar power in Sahara etc. etc. ad nauseam…and we cannot stay below 2 degrees warming in any case.
- If the energy vision of your own organization tells that bioenergy is not climate neutral and currently forests are used at unsustainable rates, don’t let it stop you from promoting substantially more biomass burning as a tool to combat climate change. (This is what, for example, Greenpeace Finland is doing.)
- Compare UK strike price for Hinkley point nuclear power plant with expected feed in tariffs for solar in Germany and claim this demonstrates how costly nuclear is. (Ignore the fact that strike prices for renewables were in fact higher and that rate of photovoltaics installations has collapsed in Germany with the reduced FiTs and that we are dealing with different countries.)
- Claim wind and solar reduce the wholesale prices of electricity so much that country actually saves more money than what it pays in subsidies.
- “Renewable energy and energy efficiency are the most efficient way to reduce emissions…”. If somebody points out to historical records that demonstrates this is not true,
repeat “Renewable energy and energy efficiency are the most efficient way to reduce emissions…” LOUDER! “Renewable energy and energy efficiency are the most efficient way to reduce emissions…”. In fact, you should just ignore the history of human development. From now on everything is different and no useful insights can be gained from studying history. Other than corporate conspiracy there are no real reasons why we have the energy infrastructure we have.
- Something amazing will happen when solar power reaches “grid parity”. If somebody suggests that gas, coal, nuclear, biomass, hydro, wind… have all reached “grid parity” long time ago, just ignore. This is clearly irrelevant to the upcoming revolution. So is the absence of affordable storage and the dependence of PV owners on the usual grid electricity most of the year.
- Production from variable renewables looks kind of steady…when you average it over a week (… or a month).
- Nuclear power is unreliable too since its fuel must be changed.
- Talk of exponential reductions in RES prices and exponential increases in installation rates even when this is not true. To support this narrative, be silent whenever the data points fail to fit the storyline. (Facts to be ignored: wind power today costs about the same as 10 years ago and installations have been around 40GW globally since 2008. Exponential growth would have implied about 600GW capacity today when the real one is about 370GW.)
- Talk about installed capacity and not about actual generation. This trick allows you to make something with small capacity factor appear larger. (We can produce all the power for humanity with renewables in very short order. Build few of these and use explosives produced “renewably”. The trick is to make power last more than few microseconds.)
- Ignore lifetime difference between different technologies. You care about the future generations so it makes perfect sense to build infrastructure for your generation only. Lifetimes will affect economics as well as required installation rates if we are to reach some desired cumulative capacity. You can only lose if you try to be honest here since 60 year design lifetime of a nuclear power plant will always beat the lifetime of generators exposed to elements.
- “Too Cheap to Meter” – the phrase beloved by commentators for whom the present upfront cost of nuclear capacity is not excuse enough to reject it: they gleefully parade this apparent past claim by “the industry” as indicative of its inherent unviability. The underlying drivers of cost escalation have been described by actual experts, but it must be pointed out that “It is not too much to expect that our children will enjoy electrical energy in their homes too cheap to meter”, uttered by Lewis Strauss in the 50s, referred to the potential of nuclear fusion, not the fission which is commonly derided.The ultimate irony is the regular claims by some commentators who believe current wind and solar technology are more than sufficient to enable a wide transition to clean energy systems barely stop short of asserting that the “free fuel” for these generators will make conventional metered, grid-supplied power redundant. (I thank actinideage for bringing this to my attention.
- Opposing argument is invalid because energy policy is about values and should therefore be decided by pop philosophers and bishops.
RES subsidies are not regressive income transfers, since all consumers pay them, electricity consumption can be reduced with efficient gadgets, and municipalities can hire poor people consultants to help them reduce their energy consumption. (This one again from Fraunhofer p25.)
- If somebody expresses concern, that single minded focus on climate change ignores and sometimes makes worse other environmental problems, attack them as bad human beings. At the same time cheer mitigation options with obviously disasterous environmental consequences. (Example from Joe Romm,an attack and confirmation that Franzen kind of had a point)
- Renewable energy surcharge (in Germany) is not really caused by renewable energy.
- Something is clearly realistic in a small country since much larger country has done it. Here is an example from Australia “The wind turbine installations will need to remain at 2,600 MW a year for the coming 15 years. This is equal to the development in the German wind power market between 1999 and 2014, a country smaller in area than New South Wales.” This was from a report lobbying for renewables by Sven Teske et al. (Teske has been writing these for Greenpeace as well.) Since New South Wales has less than 10th the population of Germany, might there not be other relevant constraints?
- Following Carbon Tracker, if wind and solar do not appear to be cheap enough today compared to fossil fuels, just change or “update” the assumptions for fossil fuel generators. Reduce load factors…presumably because China has built plenty of power plants in the assumption of rapid demand growth and these power plants are not fully utilized…yet. This is supposed to tell you something relevant in other countries as well. Also shorten the plant lifetime dramatically since emissions must be reduced. Do not acknowledge that large capital investments and well working generators make it hard to reduce emission and until now emissions reductions have never been a priority. Let me guess, in 2025 with emissions reductions nowhere to be seen, Carbon Tracker reduces coal plant lifetime to 10 years to get an even higher cost?
- Rooftop PV is free since “The cost of these systems is absorbed by the building owners, and does not directly affect calculated electricity costs under this model. “ Blakers et al.
- “Have you encountered ”survival of civilization hangs in the balance but you need to build them on time and budget” argument yet?”: @DeepShort7. This is a funny argument and used mainly by people who are instinctively anti-nuclear, but sufficiently clever to be embarrased by most anti-nuclear nonsense. This argument is only used for nuclear and not for the stuff they like. Doing otherwise would be immoral since “survival of the civilization…”
- Climate change requires urgent now! Discussion of energy policies beyond 4 year time span is a distraction. This absurdity seems to be recent arrival. Short termism is an ethical option since need for strong climate policies protecting future generations is urgent.
I think I will stop here for now. The list is getting longer than I thought. Sorry, for the misleading title.
22 comments
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06/03/2015 at 3:01 PM
Kaj Luukko
When reading this list, I got a strange feeling that I have seen this before.. Wait a minute… yes! I think it was something called climate skepticism, wasn’t it?
07/03/2015 at 10:36 AM
turboblocke
Wow, a one stop resource for anti-renewables with no links to sound science. Did you world really need another one?
07/03/2015 at 10:42 AM
Jani-Petri Martikainen
For which do you wish proper references ? I can help with that. This is a blog post after all and not intended as a full blown debunking of all sillyness out there. For that one needs a thick book.
09/03/2015 at 12:28 AM
actinideage
41. “Too Cheap to Meter” – the phrase beloved by commentators for whom the present upfront cost of nuclear capacity is not excuse enough to reject it: they gleefully parade this apparent past claim by “the industry” as indicative of its inherent unviability. The underlying drivers of cost escalation have been described by actual experts: http://deregulatetheatom.com/reference/ch-9-the-nuclear-energy-option/ but it must be pointed out that “It is not too much to expect that our children will enjoy electrical energy in their homes too cheap to meter”, uttered by Lewis Strauss in the 50s, referred to the potential of nuclear fusion, not the fission which is commonly derided: https://books.google.com.au/books?id=fCWKClWP_TwC&lpg=PA32&ots=oA9QVvMER3&dq=too%20cheap%20to%20meter%20strauss%20father&pg=PA32#v=onepage&q&f=false The ultimate irony is the regular claims by some commentators who believe current wind and solar technology are more than sufficient to enable a wide transition to clean energy systems barely stop short of asserting that the “free fuel” for these generators will make conventional metered, grid-supplied power redundant.
09/03/2015 at 5:50 AM
Jani-Petri Martikainen
Thanks! Will be added 🙂
09/03/2015 at 1:30 AM
puuheppa
some obeservations considering nuclear power lobby.
(1) they are mostly right wing conservatives who have very questionable moral sentiments what is right and wrong. See e.g. Reima Kuisla’s speeding and the moral sense of 1-percenters. Of course the rich 1-% must have right to exceed speed limits!
(2) They never try to analyze the cost of nuclear power. Realistic cost analysis is left for Greenpeace or similar organizations.
(3) They always assume, that there will be zero innovation in the future and all development of technology stops today. They fail to consider what is the innovation potential of technology. Innovation potential of nuclear power is very low, where as innovation potential of renewable energy and smart grids is very high and predictable.
(4) They make linear projections on technology. Therefore if you look their past renewable energy projections, they all have failed. No nuclear advocate could not anticipate the development energy generation sector in Germany from 2008 to present day. Still they claim that they can make up projections that are spanning up to 60 years into future!
(5) Of course nuclear advocates are cultivating famous conspiracy theory that actually Satu Hassi (Finnish Green alliance politician) was behind the German decision to get rid of nuclear power.
(6) But they fail to recongnize the economic facts that it is just barely profitable to invest for prolonging the lifespan of nuclear power power plants beyond 30 years. this is why Germany got rid of nuclear power. There was no Green conspiracy in Energiewende, but it was based more or less into real politik.
(7) Nuclear advocates fail to understand that electricity is just a part of total sustainable energy mix. We need to go 100 % sustainable ENERGY and this cannot be done with nuclear power. Most optimistic projections (such as IEA) assume at best case 10 % share for nuclear power. But 10 % share is just irrelevant if we assume rapid global economic growth that entails 10 fold increase in energy demand by 2050. Therefore there is only one realistic alternative and that is 100 % renewables. Not 90 % but 100 %.
(8) Nuclear power advocates are perhaps mostly scared renewables, because smartest of them may understand that even modest share (30 to 40 %) for wind and solar in the energy mix, will obliterate the economics of nuclear baseload power. Because renewables are pushing the market price of electricity down. The economics of nuclear power is depended on very high day time peak electricity cost. Therefore renewables and nuclear power cannot co-exist in the same grid.
(9) Nuclear power advocates assumes that centralized power generation is inherently cheaper than distributed energy generation. This is of course wrong, because transmission costs and taxes are very high, therefore distributed energy generation and distributed storage is in certain locations actually cheaper than centralized power generation – even if we assume zero cost for centralized power and today’s cost level for solar panels + batteries.
(10) Nuclear advocates fail to consider that solar soft-costs are local costs. Therefore solar soft-costs are not actual costs for local economy, but only cost associated to soft-costs of solar is the reduced free time of underemploeyd. If the local costs are properly analyzed, this turns the economics of distributed solar power upside down.
(11) Some pro nuclear advocates (very few!) admits that nuclear power is very expensive, but they argue that because it does not emit greenhouse gases, it is worth it. However they fail to consider that renewable power with distributed storage and load following dispatchable thermal or hydroelectric power costs nearly the same as nuclear power + peaking generators. The cost difference is well within the error margins. Therfore, why on Earth we should take the inherent risks associated to nuclear power and nuclear waste if there is no significant cost advatages over other clean energy sources? Once in 1000 years natural disaster can easily make almost any nuclear power plant to go into Fukushima mode. Not to mention once in million years mega-disasters that are happening, well once in a million years!
(12) Those who oppose renewables are refusing from any kind of external cost analysis. This is of course obvious because, even superficial analysis of economic and environmental external costs, shows that renewables are actually cheaper than coal, natural gas and nuclear power. Most of the external costs of renewables are in the integration costs and these are quite well known. Renewable subsidies have also positive externalities as they are pushing down the price of electricity. Therefore industry is benefitting. Also roof-top solar is creating local jobs into economy.
(13) Nuclear advocates fail to mention that primary reason why industry is willing to invest on nuclear power is that even small share for nuclear power in the grid pushes down the price of electricity. Of course they fail to mention this probably because renewables are pushing down the electricity price even more.
09/03/2015 at 7:41 AM
Jani-Petri Martikainen
09/03/2015 at 2:14 PM
puuheppa
1. see: http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2015/mar/04/finland-speeding-progressive-punishment-motorist-fine
2. I guess that your “calculations” on discount rates are not that particularly credible… ignoring all the risks is easy to do in the blog post, but rather more difficult in real life.
3. Like everyone you can name. For example ECOFYS assumes zero innovation. And it is not even nuclear lobby organization.
5. IPCC assumes zero innovation.
9. You can calculate what ever you want… if you ignore proper error analysis.
11. Economy does not care about dead people, because we have in general underemployment problem rather than scarcity over work force.
12. And according to that external cost analysis nuclear power and renewables appear to be clear winners. Expect that renewables has larger innovation potential. Also nuclear power has high political risk, because it is very likely that EU bans new nuclear power by 2020. And therefore nuclear experteese will be quickly lost as there are no new skillful engineers to replace retiring engineers. How would you analyze as an external cost, if there are not enough skillful nuclear experts to supervise the maintenance and life span extension of nuclear power plants? Are you planning to re-educate yourself to nuclear engineer? This is good example why detailled external cost analysis is hideously thorny issue. And we have not even made the question what is the exact exteranal cost of carbon emissions?
*
Anyway, you cannot argue, that there is not significant cost difference between nuclear power and renewables. Today both are hideously expensive.
But at least we can dream about better future, because the innovation potential of renewables is there. Of course it is an unknown. But risk must be taken. If pessimism is right in this matter, then it means that we are paying renewable energy subsidies for the rest of our lives. But luckily, pessimistic people are not always right.
Therefore your cricism towards renewable energy is unfounded. It is inherently pessimistic, but we really cannot change the world without genuine idealism.
I suggest for you to think Elon Musk as a role model. I am sure that Elon is everything that you hate most, because he has betted 10 billion dollars of his personal wealth into electric cars, solar panels and distrubuted energy storage. (And about three billion dollars of his wealth on solar powered Martian Colony, but lets ignore that for a moment 🙂
But as a case study Elon Musk is good example, because there really is no role for nuclear power in his equations. But he thinks that transportation and energy generation will be 100 % renewable electricity powered in matter of decades. Actually we do not have any other choice, because we cannot afford to make global experiment what happens if we continue business as usual and we are incrementally increasing the share of nuclear power.
We must act now and we must act firmly, because we really do not have any other possibility than to go 100 % renewables as soon as possible.
09/03/2015 at 2:30 PM
Jani-Petri Martikainen
You clearly have very little idea what has went into the models IPCC (among others) uses. Furthermore, I don’t think it makes sense to idolize people..and Elon Musk he is apparently not that anti-nuclear as you would wish. Not that it matters to me.
11/03/2015 at 8:17 AM
puuheppa
I did not say that he is anti-nuclear. I just said that there is no such scenario where we can go 100 % nuclear. That is just not possible unlike your think otherwise.
09/03/2015 at 3:23 PM
Kaj Luukko
“But risk must be taken. If pessimism is right in this matter, then it means that we are paying renewable energy subsidies for the rest of our lives.”
No. Risk must NOT be taken in this case. And no, that is not the risk. The risk is that renewables will not be capable to replace fossil fuels. For sure, at the moment they are not.
Nuclear power is the newest innovation in the energy field. It’s also the only innovation made during the last century. Assumptions of zero innovation in the future seems to be the case in real life.
10/03/2015 at 12:37 PM
actinideage
Observations generally require one to be observant.
I’m not going to enumerate the lapses in reasoning I see. Given that it is all at best simplistic and at worst misguided – since the information pro-nuclear energy advocates access is freely available from the web and from friendly experts – this list is practically Queen Bee Denialism http://decarbonisesa.com/2011/06/13/of-ostriches-and-queen-bees/ (except that clear questions are hardly asked, in favour of provocative assertions).
However, there are a few absolute howlers;
“Mostly right wing conservatives” – The premier of my state of South Australia is a progressive lefty. His party has held government for 12 years with a non-conservative, non-austerity agenda of infrastructure building and industrial expansion. He has called for a highest level inquiry into expanding nuclear here after decades of anti-nuclear narrative stranglehold.
“Greenpeace or similar organisations” – does that include the WWF? Their fantastical imaginings are effectively debunked in the literature: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/wcc.324/pdf
“renewables are actually cheaper than coal, natural gas and nuclear power” – I see this asserted repeatedly but never alongside a confident claim that grid priority and mandatory feed-in tariffs should be abolished so that solar and wind can truly assume their rightful places as the cheapest energy sources.
Germany – picking 2008 is sort of strange. Their wind and solar expansion started around 2001. On a per capita levelised basis of kWh addition, it is piddly compared to the nuclear build-outs of Sweden, Switzerland and France (with mere fractions of the carbon intensity). That was with 60s/70s technology. Germany is building the latest mass-produced turbines and panels – and coal plants and lignite strip mines. (Gotta hand it to you – not many Renewables Only folks cite Germany these days!)
And Elon Musk? – Amazing entrepreneur. Does anyone here hate him as you assert? He sees a future market for affordable batteries, and has the capital to establish big CENTRALISED factories to achieve the ECONOMIES OF SCALE to meet that market. (Those emphasised terms are important)
I guarantee you his factory will be fully grid-powered and running all the time – even on windless nights. What so many one-eyed Renewables Only folks must have spelled out to the is: batteries will store baseload energy just like they will store intermittent renewable energy. Renewables have no monopoly on charging nation-scale batteries, and the fact that solar generates near the peak in daily demand, and wind is all but completely uncorrelated with demand, makes them far less attractive than a big, centralised baseload plant running on coal – or preferably uranium – which can charge the batteries cheaply at night so it can be sold at a higher rate in the afternoon. This is how storage is currently operated economically. No storage operator will willingly change this.
“But as a case study Elon Musk is good example, because there really is no role for nuclear power in his equations.” I really want to quote this claim, to contrast what you wish he says (to support your flimsy case) with what he actually says,in http://www.pbs.org/thinktank/transcript1292.html
MUSK: “Yeah, we should build more nuclear power plants. I think that’s a better way to generate energy than certainly a coal power plant or a natural gas power plant.
Burning hydrocarbons — I think people now recognize is a pretty bad thing. You know over time there’s a certain limit to the CO2 capacity of the atmosphere and the oceans.”
The ultimate irony – a nice big stack of cheap Elon Musk batteries sitting beside a nuclear plant, charging at night and helping increase output at day to meet demand peak? It would also be the perfect onsite power source in case of total site power failure, keeping pumps and coolant going and ensuring the core was absolutely safe and could start up as soon as possible.
Where does this renewable energy technology come from? Hmm? How “distributed” are the grids which supply the factories that make cost-competitive PV panels and advanced-material wind turbine components? Read point 24 again! Better yet, read it all again.
11/03/2015 at 9:44 AM
puuheppa
You do not seem understand that it is not relevant if one thinks if nuclear power is better than coal or natural gas. Everybody thinks that nuclear power is better than coal or natural gas. This goes without saying.
If you support nuclear power as a “solution” you must assume 100 % or close to 100 % share of nuclear power. All other possibilities are not significant enough in real life. IPCC’s degrowth scenarios are just not realistic, if we assume aggressive global economic growth and Norwegian level living standard for 10 billion+ people.
As nuclear power is not the solution, it does not make sense for government to start subidizing nuclear power like government granted lucrative subsidies in England for new Hinkley Point nuclear power plant.
The point is that the baseload power and renewable power does not fit into same grid, because even modest share of non-hydro renewables will oblitarate the economics of baseload power, because the installed capacity of renewables must be several fold larger than what is the actual demand (for wind power 3x and for solar power 6x).
The economics of baseload power is depended on high prices of daytime electricity, but solar in particular is eliminating the high price of daytime electricity. And with night time rates it is impossible to cover the high capital costs of baseload power, because night time electricity price is at the marginal cost of baseload power. And if we start to artificially control electricity night time electricity prices, people and companies are just reducing the use of electricity on night. E.g. three shift factory work may become unprofitable if night time electricity rates are getting more expensive.
You are correct that with grid storage batteries it possible to add extra layer of redundancy. E.g. Fukushima disaster could have been avoided with grid storage batteries as an extra layer of redundancy.
But if you assume any role for batteries, then the economics of nuclear power is getting even worse, because already nuclear power is significantly more expensive than renewables, but the only argument to support nuclear power was that it is non-variable power. But any share of batteries is reducing the integration cost of renewables. Batteries are therefore cutting the only advantage that nuclear power has over renewables.
31/03/2015 at 7:41 PM
Engineer-Poet
And why not? We know this works, reliably and cheaply. Look at France. Ontario isn’t far off, with hydro being used to balance nuclear base load (with a bunch of superfluous wind and solar driving up rates but not contributing much).
Proof By Blatant Assertion? You haven’t a single example of your all-renewable grid operating on an industrial scale anywhere in the world. Nuclear is a PROVEN solution. Wind and solar aren’t a solution, and cannot be on this planet.
But you don’t object to even bigger subsidies for off-shore wind. It’s really ironic for you to make such a disingenuous claim in a discussion devoted to dishonest arguments for RE.
That’s only true if RE gets market distortions in its favor, such as dispatch priority, production tax credits or feed-in tariffs. Absent such distortions, RE finds its revenue going to zero whenever it’s producing more than a moderate fraction of non-peak demand. This destroys its business model long before it threatens base load.
I wonder if you really understand what you just wrote here. At $1/watt, just the panels for a PV system would cost on the order of $6000/average kilowatt with no storage or other requirements included. The all-in price of Vogtle 3 and 4 is projected to be around $6800/kW, and they need no storage. Even the first-of-a-kind AP1000 units are about as cheap as the PV panels for your “solution”. Then add inverters, charge controllers and batteries to cover the 2/3 of the day when PV can’t produce, as well as cloudy days. 3 days of storage at $200/kWh is $14,400 per average kW of consumption. Now you’re over $20,000 per average kW. Vogtle 3 and 4 are bargains compared to solar. Future units will be built faster and come in cheaper.
Only in deregulated markets, which have proven to have higher consumer costs than regulated utilities.
If you have a PSC which aims for lowest overall cost, solar will not receive the market distortions which allow it to take any great share and not bankrupt itself; those distortions increase overall cost. Consumers whose use peaks in the evening (well after PV is done for the day) will wind up paying the same peak-demand charge no matter how much they try to cram onto the grid at noon. Their solar investment will not pay off and the folly will be obvious… maybe even to you.
If you assume any role for storage at all, sources which can re-fill storage daily win out over those which need storage to tide them over lulls lasting days. That favors nuclear over wind and solar, regardless of storage technology. When you combine this with e.g. steam-compression heat pumps to store energy as heat in hot nitrate salt (about $10/kWh for the medium) instead of costly batteries, nuclear wins many times over.
If you paid attention to Germany, you’d see how your dream is falling apart under the weight of its contradictions. When Germany used its nuclear plants, its pumped storage was well-used and profitable; under the subsidies and other market-rigging required to prop up wind and solar, pumped storage is going broke and being replaced by lignite.
Your Gigafactory battery at $200/kWh can’t beat molten nitrate at $10/kWh(e) [$4/kWh(th)]. You’re pitting scarce lithium against potassium, sodium, nitrogen and oxygen. A few rare brines against the ocean and atmosphere… there’s no contest.
Now if you only had the sense to realize it.
13/03/2015 at 4:33 AM
actinideage
“The point is that the baseload power and renewable power does not fit into same grid”
They fit into this grid: http://live.gridwatch.ca/home-page.html
“but the only argument to support nuclear power was that it is non-variable power”
Says you.
“But any share of batteries is reducing the integration cost of renewables. Batteries are therefore cutting the only advantage that nuclear power has over renewables.”
You will find this article enlightening: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/08/1221552/-GETTING-TO-ZERO-Is-renewable-energy-economically-viable#
If you’re version of economical storage operation is superior to Weißbach’s understanding, I encourage you to write it up, get it peer-reviewed and published, and I promise I’ll seriously consider it then.
Electricity doesn’t care what it’s stored in – pumped hydro, batteries, whatever. France currently operates significant pumped hydro with a close to fully nuclear grid: http://www.rte-france.com/en/eco2mix/eco2mix-mix-energetique-en
13/03/2015 at 11:06 AM
puuheppa
Actinidage, that is untrue. There are no significant amounts of solar and wind power in Ontario’s Grid mix. Imagine to install 20 % solar power and 40 % wind power there and then calculate how well nuclear power fits into same grid with renewables. If you have any understanding what marginal cost of generating electricity means, then you should be able to understand this argument.
Therefore as the case of Ontario clearly shows, it is only possible to invest on either nuclear power or renewables, but you cannot have both in significant quantities.
The problem however is that we cannot prevent people from installing solar power onto their roof-tops and buy battery packs into their garages. Therefore renewable energy comes in any case in significant quantities. We just cannot prevent private households and companies to install solar panels onto their roof-tops.
*
Apparently you do not understand what is diffence in economics between distributed storage and centralized storage… Tell me, when do you think that it is cheaper for people in Queensland to install solar panels + batteries into their houses to replace as much as possible grid electricity. Can you predict the year when solar + battery storage reaches grid parity in Queensland Australia?
Have you ever even considered how many percent the cost of roof-top solar + storage must go down from current levels before it is cheaper that grid power e.g. in Ontario, Nevada, Queensland, Bavaria and Naples?
13/03/2015 at 4:17 PM
puuheppa
actinideage, anyone’s understanding is superior to Weißbach’s understanding, because Weißbach is just lobby group that does not bother to check even the basic facts right. See e.g.
http://energytransition.de/2014/09/renewables-ko-by-eroi/
Also EROI is meaningless with renewable energy because solar panels can be manufactured using 100 % renewable energy. Therefore making the EROI infinite. EROI is only useful indicator when discussing about fossil energy, because with fossil energy we are interested how much we are consuming energy. With solar panels we are only interested how much solar panels cost and is the levelized cost of roof-top solar + storage cheaper than grid electricity AFTER transmission costs and taxes.
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